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Icon AOA (good info for all) |
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Dave Lima - Jul 24,2013
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Bob Kerrigan - Jul 24,2013
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Nice bit of education... IMHO, Icon is not really interested in safety, but looking for a way to help keep the A5 from entering into a spin or stall due to the current wing design they would have to use if the FAA denies the petition to increase the weight. If they were so interested in AoA it would have been a part of the initial avionics package 5 years ago. Same thing Cirrus did...They could not prove the ability to get out of a spin, so they included a parachute as the obligatory safety device in the event the pilot encountered a spon. ... by the way, Dynon has offered AOA for a long time, so anyone that has a Dynon box can add the AoA system if desired. ... What concerns me more is the Icon petition to be allowed to increase the SLSA max gross weight for the A5 to 1680 lbs....not that I would buy one, just thinking of the market fairness issue of the other SLSA manufacturers desiging and manufacturing compliant aircraft.... doing everything under the ASTM rules... and then here comes Icon taking deposits from up to 1000 buyers for an aircraft that may or may not be available as an SLSA. If I were an investor in Icon, I would be very concerned. As an aviation entusiast, there are even more questions.....your thoughts.....
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Don Maxwell - Jul 24,2013
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AoA comes with every Dynon EFIS; it's built into the software. All you need to add is their pitot (or make one yourself with an air pressure reference port, as several of us have done). With a Dynon you don't even have to look at it because it will either beep at you or say, 'Stall stall...' when you get close to the red. (Depends on what Dynon hardware you have.)
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Dave Lima - Jul 24,2013
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Doesn't look like the investors are concerned.....<br /><a href="http://www.iconaircraft.com/news/icon-aircraft-raises-60-million-of-investment-capital.html">http://www.iconaircraft.com/news/icon-aircraft-raises-60-mil<br>lion-of-investment-capital.html</a><br /><br />There's a key sentence here:<br /><br /> 'and perform R&D to expand its model line.'
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Ron Laughlin - Jul 25,2013
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'Same thing Cirrus did...They could not prove the ability to get out of a spin, so they included a parachute as the obligatory safety device in the event the pilot encountered a spin.'<br /><br />Not true Bob. That's just an 'Old Wives Tale' that won't die. Alan and Dale had already decided to do the chute before the SR20 was even on the drawing board. When it came time to do the spin testing it was cheaper (and safer) to use the chute as the approved 'spin recovery' for certification purposes. The combination of the chute and the stall resistant wing satisfied the FAA. The EASA on the other hand did require spin testing of the SRXX aircraft for European certification and guess what, it recovered from a spins just fine using normal recovery techniques.<br /><br />Also it's important to note that all twins and jets are certified without spin testing so it's not really that unusual for the FAA to not require it.
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Bob Kerrigan - Jul 25,2013
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Ron, Thanks for the input. I don't know the fellows you name..., maybe they did.... I can't say what their intentions where... but there have been several if not many incidents where pilots have entered into spins and could not recover.. .so they popped the chute. The difficulties.... almost impossibility for a normal 100 hour per year pilot to get a Cirrus out of a spin is notorious.... so, myth or not, I don't buy the idea that the FAA didn't have any say in the matter. I may be wrong... been wrong before...But I will tell you this story... A Cirrus test pilot to remain unnamed spun out of control for over 10K feet before being able to get out of the spin... his story not mine. If he had that kind of problems with a spin, I know most pilots would, for sure me as a 100 hour per year pilot. Go into one at a lower altitude and thank God for the BRS!!!!
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Robert Charlwood Richardson - Jul 28,2013
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The recent AOPA e-newsletter had a prediction that the FAA was going <br />to announce at Oskosh it's approval of Icon's weight exception. I guess <br />big money and publicity matter more than adherence to technical <br />regulator standards.
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AOPA blog piece
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Dave Lima - Jul 28,2013
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Of course they will (as I predicted) Money does matter, as well as jobs, the economy etc...Do people realize the amount of money, skilled workers, engineers, investors etc. that have been working on this aircraft. It's too big to fail !!!
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John Robert Dunlop - Jul 29,2013
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Dave, I'm not as business savvy as you are. And, after 7 decades, I seem to still lack a reliable crystal ball  However, my gut tells me that when I'm pushing daisies the Icon will be a notable historical aviation scam of the 21st century.. <br />Much as I might wish otherwise, I think it is now too big not to fail..
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Bob Kerrigan - Jul 29,2013
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John, your point is absolutely correct. If Icon sold the A5 for $189,000 and used every penny of that sales amount they would need to sell 450 planes just to cover the approximately $85 million investment that now has been made in the company. If we assume that they were able to make an almost impossible 20% net profit on each plane and used every dollar to cover the investment they would have to sell 2,248 planes.....seems unlikely investors would ever see a return on investment under the present scenario. Icon claims to have over 1,000 deposits, but keep in mind we have no idea how many potential buyers have asked for their money back while watching the price sky rocket. Also they say that deliveries for purchases today will be delivered sometime in 2017... so, 250 aircraft delivered per year....just does not sound like a credible story. It is a cool airplane, but I suspect the market will get impatient with escalating pricing and 4 year wait for delivery.
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Don Maxwell - Jul 29,2013
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It reminds me of the Tucker car--which was also a very cool machine. But they made only 49 prototypes before going bust. There was one in my friend Dominick Poliafico's garage for several years while his father, a Tucker dealer, was doing time. It was drivable, but not in the rain because the windshield was plexiglas so the wipers were disabled.<!-- >'"><br><font color=red size=6>' or > missing in user HTML. Please fix the HTML.</font> -->
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Dave Lima - Jul 29,2013
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Here is what I received just now from Icon.....<br /><br />David,<br /><br /> We are excited to announce that the FAA has officially granted ICON Aircraft the weight exemption we were seeking to include a Spin-Resistant Airframe (SRA) in the A5. In their grant, the FAA stated, 'The combined design features and SRA concepts incorporated into the ICON A5 design...are recognized by the FAA as significant safety enhancements...' They further stated, 'The FAA determined that granting relief from the MTOW (Maximum Takeoff Weight) for LSA for this specific safety enhancement is in the public interest and is also consistent with the FAA's goals of increasing safety for small planes.' <br /><br /> As you can imagine, this is extraordinary news for both ICON and the entire industry, as it highlights the FAA's philosophical commitment to not allow arbitrary weight limits stand in the way of significant safety innovations like spin resistance. While it was a long time in the making, and the delayed decision didn't make the design process any easier for us over the last 14 months, we're happy to report that in the end, the FAA got this one exactly right. <br /><br /> We would like to thank those of you who submitted a comment to the FAA supporting the exemption. Your voice played an important role in the success. As a result of the exemption, an already great aircraft just got even better, and with the D round of financing in place and the uncertainty around the exemption resolved, we are now in an excellent position as we continue to ramp up our production efforts. <br /><br /> Here is a link to the full press release that went out today. There are more details in it that we think you'll find interesting. <br /><br /><a href="http://www.iconaircraft.com/news/faa-grants-spin-resistance-weight-exemption.html">http://www.iconaircraft.com/news/faa-grants-spin-resistance-<br>weight-exemption.html</a> <br /><br /> Blue skies, <br /><br /> The ICON Aircraft Team <br /><br /><br /> ICON Aircraft<br />12511 Beatrice Street<br />Los Angeles, CA 90066<br />United States<br />
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Don Maxwell - Jul 29,2013
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Interesting,Dave. So if an ICON will qualify as a Light Sport airplane, will a Sport Pilot be allowed to fly it legally as PIC? If so, then will Sport Pilots be able to fly other airplanes that are equally heavy?
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Walt Bates - Aug 20,2013
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I don't see why they need more weight to achieve spin resistance. Watch their spin video with the A5 side by side with the C-150. Both get full right rudder and full back stick applied and the result is dramatic and predictable. But look more closely at how much the rudders and elevators actually move. All they did was to limit control movement. I pity the poor guy that has to make a crosswind landing some day. Also, there are cases when I'm in the lee of a tree line on a small windy lake where my SR needs full rudder to pick up a wing. Good luck, ICON pilot.
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Lee Pfingston - Aug 19,2013
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BD-5,,,,,,,,,,,,,,A5,,,,,,,,,,,BD-5,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,A5
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Bruce McGregor - Aug 19,2013
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Prescott Pusher......Revolution Mini-500......Wheeler <br />Express......Epic<br /><br />Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to <br />repeat it.....Satayana
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Frank A. Carr - Jul 30,2013
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These arguments for/against Icon remind me what my Dad used to say many decades ago: "Some of my friends are fer it and some are agin it; I'm for my friends." So I personally have no axe to grind for or against Icon and I certainly have no business sense whatsoever. But I'd be very careful to bet against Burt Rutan's influence..So you'll say, it'll fly well but make no money? Maybe, but I'm still not bettin'.<!-- >'"><br><font color=red size=6>' or > missing in user HTML. Please fix the HTML.</font> -->
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Kenneth Leonard - Aug 18,2013
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Burt Rutan has never been in the business to make money. He does it to build cool new things. The A5 IS cool. It's hip. It's also a scam. Having big names does not make it profitable. Too big to fail? Really? $85 million is too big to fail? There are plenty of 8.5 Billion dollar companies that weren't too big to fail. This sounds more like a pyramid scheme every day. Then again, it appears the only way to have general aviation exist in America next generation is if LSAs sell by the tens of thousands so, with that, I truly wish Icon the very best of business luck.
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Steve Kessinger - Aug 19,2013
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OTOH, Burt and Scaled Composites has not stayed in business all these year in royalties from selling LongEze plans. <br /><br />Maybe the Icon is a white cover for a black project? Is there an Icon A6 flying at Groom Lake?
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Paulo Constantino - Oct 01,2013
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So what's latest on when Icon will start delivering airplanes? I <br />happened to start making conversation with a rather attractive lady <br />just getting ready to go for a flight. She mentioned that she and her <br />fiance were waiting for their new airplane to be delivered. Great and <br />when? I asked, excited for them. Next year, she says, with this great <br />smile. What is it? I asked. An Icon she tells me, it's really cool, it has <br />folding wings, looks real sporty and has a parachute if things don't go <br />well. An Icon? Next year? I didn't say too much because her fiance <br />must know his stuff and must of done his homework. I had to dig a <br />little more. So you're the pilot or is he one too, I asked. Oh no, she <br />says, I've got a!bout 3 hours and he's also just starting. We're going to <br />get a sport pilot license together, we only need 20 hours for that <br />license. <br /> You can see that some of the people Icon is targeting, are those that <br />have the money, are not pilots, but believe they too can take some <br />lessons and fly an airplane as easy as riding a wave runner. She did <br />say that they're in the 40's in position on the waiting list. Which <br />seemed kind of early on that list, they must be waiting a long time <br />then. Could they possibly deliver by middle of next year? I can't see it <br />happening. <br />Having people with so little flying experience getting right into <br />seaplane flying, could be a recipe for trouble.
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Chris Vernon-Jarvis - Oct 01,2013
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Personally I find it utterly amazing that you can go flying 'on your own' with only twenty hours. There may be SDport Planes out there that are easy to fly, and I know part of the rational is that they are slower, but, again just personally, I actually think Sport planes are more difficult to fly than most spam cans. They are light and most don't 'carry way' as they say in sailing.<br /><br />Get a gust on final and they slow down suddenly. Get a 'busy' day up there and they get thrown around a lot.<br /><br />Agree with Paul, add seaplane operations to that and you are riding for a fall. Of course JMHO and I am known locally as the resident cynic.
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Daniel Paul Myers - Oct 01,2013
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Greg and I took delivery of our new A5 yesterday at about <br />5:00pm
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photo 265
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Kenneth Leonard - Oct 01,2013
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Cool! And your payload is measured in ounces, eh? Well, so is the real one!
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Eric Batterman - Oct 01,2013
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Plane only weighs 3 oz (and doesn't have retract gear). No folding wing option either. How's it fly? - need to replace my kid's treed spitfire. Gotta love that gyro system.
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