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Posted By:
Don Maxwell
Date Posted:
Dec 29, 2020
Description:
A robot has been my best flying companion for over 12 years. This is a 5-minute video of us getting along fine: Landing Gear Robot
Date Taken:
2020-12-10
Place Taken:
James River, Virginia
Owner:
Don Maxwell
File Name:
- Photo HTML
Full size - <img src="/show.php?splash=7iiwV8CYKh">
Medium - <img src="/show.php?splash=7iiwV8CYKm">
Thumbnail - <img src="/show.php?splash=7iiwV8CYKs">
Category:
Max Pix
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Click on photo to view the original size. |
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Read what others had to say:
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Don Maxwell - Dec 12,2020
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John Dunlop - Dec 13,2020
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Congratulations Maestro!
This posting of your Robot passenger refreshes our memories of "the big splash" that for many years
haunted our little fleet.
May posting this short video on S&D, save countless more airframes and amphibious pilots from injury
and drowning.
Thank you my friend...
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Harold Roberts - Dec 23,2020
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Don. We have a similar 'robot' but we are not happy with it. In your system, the robot says raise gear after a certain
time period after takeoff. What triggers the alert? What exactly (speed thresholds, flap config) triggers the alert for
landing warnings and the warning to raise the gear on takeoff?
Ours triggers when flaps are down and you cross a speed threshold you can set. The problem is that you might do this
frequently if you are doing slow flight or practicing stalls etc. In our case, we get an alert even if we raised the gear on
takeoff as we are climbing after takeoff to 'choose' which type of landing we are doing. We also get more than one alert
as we are landing. The problem is they come as we are doing our GIFFTS checklist, basically interrupting the process to
punch the 'water' or 'runway' button.
It seems yours operates on the same principal as ours: It doesn't know if you are coming in for a water or runway
landing but does 'think' you are coming in for a landing on something and forces you to confirm the choice. During
training with this system I had been doing so many water landings in a row that as I was coming in for a runway
landing I pushed water again (as I had done in the last 10 landings) even though I 'knew' I was coming in for a runway
landing. I haven't done that again as it was a good lesson for me.
But these systems are inherently dumb since they don't know what type of landing you are going to do and the pilot
has to correctly tell it. Still prone to pilot error. Moreover, ours will alert multiple times while we are doing GIFFTS or
just taking off, leading to 'Alarm Fatigue', a very common issue with pilots and alarms, especially in the commercial
sphere.
Our EFIS, which has the gear alarm embedded into it, also has all the information needed to determine whether you are
landing on water or runway. Heck, my smartphone does as well, GPS location, velocity, direction and AGL. The EFIS
also has flap and gear position, which my smartphone does not. The EFIS should not trigger on just airspeed and flaps
but also height above the ground. More importantly it should be using the GPS position and database to determine
whether I'm doing a water or runway landing. It should NOT alert or alarm unless it sees a mismatch between the gear
position and the type of landing I am doing. It should NOT require me to select water or runway landing. This kind of
alarm will eliminate alarm fatigue and not have lots of false alerts or alarms.
I've heard that gear down water landings are a big reason for insurance rates being so high or impossible to even get
on a SeaRey.
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John Dunlop - Dec 24,2020
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Harold, Don has certainly got it right!
I should simply add that Progressive Aerodyne advertises the 2070 on their SeaRey Store for $780.
If you are an STS member, you can also purchase it from me for $708
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Don Maxwell - Dec 23,2020
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Hal, I think you're asking for more than can (currently) be provided reliably. Yes, we have GPS and mapping data; but it's not good enough (yet) to guarantee perfect accuracy--which means that you'd never be able to trust the alert if it tried to do everything you want. In theory it should work; but in practice you'd always be wondering.
In the meantime, you might want to install the ACI SeaRey Landing Gear Alert in your airplane. If you have a factory-built S-LSA Searey, you'll need written permission from Progressive Aerodyne to make that legal (unless you can figure out a way to make the pitot and other connections without "modifying" the airplane). If yours is Experimental, you can do the installation yourself without permission. (It needs 12 VDC, pitot pressure, flap and landing gear position indicators, and intercom connection.)
The ACI SeaRey Landing Gear Alert is (currently) the best available anywhere. It's proactive; it always tells you what to do and then checks on your response; and it NEVER gives you false info, because it's very smart AND it doesn't try to do the impossible.
What it does is check on the pilot, not the airplane or the terrain. It requires the pilot to choose whether the landing will be on "runway" or "water" and it compares that cholce to the landing gear position. Then it responds appropriately with "Water landing--okay" or "Runway landing--okay" or "CHECK LANDING GEAR!" Any warning is ignorable--but ignoring this one is pretty hard to do, mainly because it's thinking ahead of the pilot, it's never soothing, and it never stops (unless you raise the flaps and speed up).
The Searey community learned the hard way always to keep the gear up when flying--because you can't do a gear-down water landing that way. (Gear-up runway landings in a Searey result in little or no damage.) "Wheels up for flying"--"WUFF"--is part of the Searey-flying mantra, "POP WUFF 70 WOW!" that has reduced the Searey accident rate dramatically over the past 12 years.
Therefore, the ACI SeaRey Landing Gear Alert tells you to raise the landing gear if it's still down by about 45 seconds after takeoff. That's its most powerful feature. (The latest version repeats that command three minutes later if the gear is still down.) If you leave the gear down after the warning(s), it simply waits until you configure for a landing and then requires you to tell it (by pressing the appropriate button) what you intend to do. Then it reacts to your choice, based on the landing gear position.
It's possible to suspend the ACI SeaRey alert temporarily. If you want to do slow flight, for example, just long-press either button and it will temporarily ignore flap position and airspeed and flash the lights alternately until you tell it to get back to work. (The new version will remind you every 10 minutes thereafter.) Re-engage the alert by tapping either button, and it will flash the lights and also tell you that it's back at work.
The ACI firmware is upgradable, by the way. Just check with ACI for the new chipset and specify it's for the 2070 SeaRey Gear Alert. (The 2070 is not currently mentioned on their website.)
I'm obligated to say that this borders on a technical discussion and encourage you to join STS, the Searey Technical Site. You'll find lots of other info there. It's THE place for Searey technical and safety info. Every Searey owner or builder should belong to STS and check in there regularly. To join STS, click on "Help" in the upper right corner of this page and fill in your data, with "STS membership request" in the Subject line and your Searey's kit (serial) number in the body. Someone will reply soon with login instructions. If you have any trouble with that, just let me know and I'll help you with it.
| | Attachments:
ACI
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Harold Roberts - Dec 29,2020
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Don, "I'm obligated to say that this borders on a technical discussion and encourage you to join STS, the Searey Technical Site"
I have already applied to join STS and Don White (GoClub.us) questioned our registration and asked for details, which I gave him
on December 23rd and have not heard from him since.
"If you have any trouble with that, just let me know and I'll help you with it."
Yes I'm having trouble, so yes I would appreciate the help. I will switch to the technical site as soon as someone accepts my STS
application.
"Therefore, the ACI SeaRey Landing Gear Alert tells you to raise the landing gear if it's still down by about 45 seconds after takeoff.
That's its most powerful feature"
I totally agree with this concept. Getting the gear up quickly is the most critical thing. I believe a recent Water Flying magazine
article said that gear down configuration in an amphibious plane should be considered an 'unnatural state' for the plane. Maybe
that is all that is needed. But let's continue the discussion. Consider the scenario where the pilot intends to land on runway, has
confirmed his intentions but trouble occurs as he is landing and he diverts to nearby water. Runways with water nearby abound in
Florida and to a lesser extent in Minnesota where I live.
"Yes, we have GPS and mapping data; but it's not good enough (yet) to guarantee perfect accuracy"
I agree that 'perfect accuracy' is not possible, but I disagree with the premise that 'perfect accuracy' is needed. In fact insisting
upon 'perfect accuracy' about anything is a conversation stopper; nothing has perfect accuracy.
Example: Let's assume a system is in place like ACI where gear down water landings are *almost* eliminated. Let's say that as a
result of ACI we only have 1 gear down landing in 100,000 hours of flying time on average. Let's further assume that a separate
(additional) GPS based system is in place which only alarms when the plane is below 100' AGL, in descent mode, airspeed
<70mph, projected velocity vector intersecting a body of water using GPS, and the gear in down position. Let's further assume
this system fails due to 'imperfect accuracy' 10% of the time. 10% failure is certainly very 'imperfect', yet in the above example it
would still reduce gear down landings by 90%.
Happy to jump this discussion to STS when membership is (finally) granted.
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Don Maxwell - Dec 29,2020
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Sorry, Hal. Don White has been busy lately. You should hear from an STS administrator very soon! Check your email.
I don't disagree with you--but assumptions make me uncomfortable. Phil Jackson didn't seem to like them, either. "Never assume. It makes an ASS of U and ME."
The ACI gear alert tries to prevent that hazard.
| | Attachments:
NeverAssume PhilJackson-S3
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John Dunlop - Dec 30,2020
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One of the problems with Harold's assumptions about his "additional" smart GPS system with its "projected velocity vector
intersecting a body of water" is the annoying false-alert (or failure to alert) that we worked so hard to eliminate with the 2070. Many
Searey approaches to small lakes or rivers are below 100' along a shoreline or winding valley. Some will land on a beach or grass strip
adjacent to water. GPS will often display a dry lakebed as water.
The trouble with a system that constantly false-alerts is that it gets ignored...
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Harold Roberts - Dec 29,2020
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When I used the word 'assume' I used it in the mathematical sense. In a mathematical proof, you must start with certain
'assumptions' as per Wikipedia definition: "A mathematical proof is an inferential argument for a mathematical statement, showing
that the stated assumptions logically guarantee the conclusion."
In my "Example" I was providing the assumptions *under which the example holds*. If the assumptions don't hold then neither
does the conclusion about a 90% reduction in gear down landings.
The 'assumption' that makes an ASS of U and ME occurs when a person proceeds *as if* a certain condition holds (i.e. gas is in the
gas tank) *without checking* to see if it does hold.
The adage, "Never assume" does not distinguish between these two different uses of the word.
By the way, thanks for the help on getting into the STS site, I now have permissions and we can carry on conversations about gear
warning systems over there.
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